Welcome to…………..

Mopar Skunkwerks is  dedicated to the retro conversion of  my old car, The Rat Patrol – my 1971 Valiant Charger –  to a Generation 3  Hemi 6.1 litre engine.

This includes the retro-mod from EFI to carb induction.

It will detail all the steps and modifications  necessary to achieve the conversion..including a comprehensive “to do” list and parts list to assist those who may want to try the same ……..

1st iteration – single carb on Modman intake – woeful tuning issues with intake

2nd iteration – dual quads and plenum divider on Modman – improved peak HP but still terrible bottom end signal

3rd iteration – Edelbrock dual plane dual quad – far superior signal strength – Improved peak HP by 20 rwhp – Improved TQ across range by significant amount – Did show some shortage of plenum volume at track, slightly taller than the Modman requires some skimming for engine bay clearance.

 

 

Building a better Rat Trap

Forged pistons – with valve reliefs!!

At the time I first did my conversion, I was in the dark in relation to a few matters which have since come back and haunted me. So I decided to get the motor blueprinted to rectify what were becoming serious issues.

To be clear, the two problems were related in the effect they created, but separate as far as components.

PROBLEM 1 – Piston/Valve clearance.

Factory P/V clearance is tight with factory slugs. Not an issue if you keep the factory cam and factory EFI.

BUT…

– Most aftermarket camshafts for Gen 3 motors are ground with a fairly late Intake Centre Line. This is to ensure the Piston does not hit the Valve.

 – Not a problem when running EFI, (EFI atomisation is superior) – BIG PROBLEM with carb induction.

 – A problem called ‘intake reversion’ (The intake charge getting sucked back up the intake) can create fuel pooling in the runners.

RESULT – Bores ‘washed’, Excessive oil burning, bore glazing and bearing damage

SOLUTION – If you want to stick with carbs, get rid of the factory pistons and degree your camshaft correctly.

Scoured bearings due to oil overheating and thinning.

PROBLEM 2 – Intake options.

At the time I did my install there were very few intake options, mostly inferior to the factory EFI system.

Most are STILL inferior to the factory intake, whether you use an EFI Throttle body or a Carb.

The OCP dual plane intake released two years ago is by far the best designed off-the-shelf carb intake and has been painstakingly dyno tested to prove its efficiency.

The Edelbrock Dual Quad is an old design, and although works acceptably, my testing showed the plenums were arguably still too small.

Anything else, including the ‘drag pack’ style hi rise intakes, have notable deficiencies in their operation.

RESULT – Poor fuel induction with poor low end response, poor fuel mixtures, you can guess the rest!

SOLUTION – If you don’t want to use the factory intake, use the OCP intake. it can be ordered for EFI or carb applications.

 

Glazed bore as a result of intake reversion diluting oil

EXPECTED OUTCOME?

– Well, for a start, no oil burning!

– The cam was retarded 8 degrees, so I expect a significant improvement in induction signal down low and an increase in mid range torque, as well as a more useable power band. I also have the option of going with a bigger cam later.

– The intake and heads are being port matched

– Better grade fasteners are being used and the timing chain is being replaced with a 9 key way double roller.

Stay tuned for progress updates on the rebuild!

Parting the clouds…

One of the big hurdles I encountered when doing my retro fit…and one that I found a hassle when pondering a change to forged pistons, was what were the parts I actually needed!!

The following list is designed to help the guys who may not have the benefit of an experienced Gen 3 engine builder, but need to get some parts lined up on the table to do stuff.

The list is split into four sections – sections –Basic technical specs of a standard stroke 6.1 hemi rotating assembly – Parts to complete a retro fit using carbs – a list of gaskets and fasteners you’ll need for any tear down or cam change – and some parts suggestions for an internal rebuild  for a stroker or just a stronger standard stroke motor.

These lists are NOT comprehensive, but will at least give you an idea of what’s available and who makes what.

signed, your Editor.

6.1 Specs

Bore – 4.055

Stroke – 3.58

Rod length – 6.240

Pins – 2.55”, .9843”

Piston weight – 441 grams inc pin

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Retro fit parts list

Ignition ECU – MSD 6-HEMI P# 6013 – This is for ignition only. so unsuitable for use if you want EFI.

ECU to coil Harness – MSD P# 88864 (Requires changes to factory cam and crank sensors to 07-10 5.7 Cam and Crank sensors)

Engine mounts – TTI – MM57A

MP Flex plate adapter – P5153753

ATI Flex plate adapter (Recommended) – ATI915685

Milodon Pan/Sump – MIL31000 – (Note, also available are Weldtech, Canton Mecca, Charlies &  Moroso- (Do your research!,Ed.)

Milodon Pick up – MIL18331

Milodon bolt kit – MIL85025

Milodon splash tray – MIL32010

Milodon pan gaskets – Mil40750

Mahle splash tray – OS32363

Milodon Oil dipstick – 22064

Lokar flexible transmission dipstick

Lokar universal accelerator cable

Lokar universal kickdown cable

Manifold – Carb(s) or 4V Throttle Body

•  OCP Dual Plane Single
• Edelbrock Dual Plane Dual Quad – (Small plenum volume, responds well to spacers)
• Ritter Drag pack (Requires scoop – 7.5” high)
• MP Drag Pack – (Requires scoop – 9” high)
• Indy Modman – Dual or Single (Recommended for use with supercharger only)

Air cleaner, Aluminium Radiator, Hoses, Electric Fans

PS delete pulley (Bouchillion)

Headers – TTI long tube or Jeep SRT factory may fit

Remote oil filter set up or Dakota filter mount

TTI oil boss block off plate – 0200-FBP

Idler pulley – 0489172AA, Screw – 06508247AA

Tensioner – 04861660AA, Screw – 06104221AA

Jeep 6.1 Nippondenso Alternator pre 2011 – 56044380AC, 56044380AH,  (Use with external regulator) – The Jeep alt. provides for better inner guard clearance.

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Fasteners and gaskets

Main Cap oil pick up stud # 6506333A

Main Cap bolt #6506272AA M12X1.75X91.2

Main Cap oil pick up stud # 6506333A

Main cap side bolts #6507697AA M8X1.25X45

Mopar Head Gasket 6.1 #5037592AC

Head Bolt #6506334AA

Head Bolt #6510280AA.

Screw-Connecting Rod #6509243AA

Head Gasket Sets – #Fel-Pro HS26366PT

Intake Gasket (Ports only) – Cometic #C5197 – Cometic Aramid Fibre

Intake Gasket inc Factory valley – MAHLE Original #MS19674

Exhaust Gasket – Fel-Pro #MS96964

Lower end gasket kit – #05170861AC

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Std/Stroker rebuild parts.

Pistons – Probe SRS forged – #14868 – 491 grams inc pins – 9.88 comp  – Rings – Total Seal ring pack – CR 1001 60 (1/16,1/16, 3mm).

Piston Kit – Mahle HMI220055F01 forged inc metric ring pack (1.5, 1.5, 3.0) – 429 grams – :10:1 comp

Piston kit – Wiseco K0112xs forged inc metric ring pack (1.2, 1.2, 3) – 460 grams – 11:1 comp

Piston kit – Stroker – Wiseco K471X05 forged inc metric ring pack – 445 grams – 10.5:1 comp

Camshaft – Crower camshaft degreeing bushings – 720007, 720008, 720009 (Use these with aftermarket pistons with valve reliefs ONLY)

T Chain – Manley 73205 DR 9 Key way – (Use with aftermarket pistons with valve reliefs ONLY)

Rear seal without retainer – #C5203 Cometic

Front seal – 53021585AD or Timken SL260028

6.2 / 5.7L – NON-MDS Lifter 5038784AC.

 

11.7 – a win in my book…

Three Years ago I was talked into replacing my broken LA stroker with a Gen 3 hemi.

I figured why not? Easy I assumed.. Run 11s easy I assumed….

Well if you’ve been following…you’ll know it ain’t been easy – but I succeeded through trial, error, bloody pigheadedness and some light bulb moments!

If I had my time again…id have gone straight to a hood scoop and a drag pack intake – not because its the best way to make HP with a carb….BUT three years ago it was pretty much the only efficient way. Other intakes on the market were inefficient, or needed more than one carb.

If I had my time again…Id know to try to replicate the factory EFI intake….looong runners…and a decent plenum.

So instead…I used stacked spacers

Now thanks to Joe O’Cone’s OCP intake, the resto mod is a lot easier… But that wasn’t around when I started.

Cam calibration is still a thorn in the side of those doing this mod.  Unless you use custom slugs..it’ll bite you on the backside!

I plan on contacting Modern Muscle next year to see what can be done to defeat Piston/Valve issues without swapping slugs.

And then there’s port matching..but now the Eddy dual quad is available with 6.1 ports…for a mere $700 US…..

Until then..I have my 11.7 timeslip to keep me warm 🙂

Dyno Data is IN!

A while back I promised that I’d do a genuine comparison between the Indy Modman intake and the Edelbrock 5.7 dual quad dual plane.

I experienced significant tuning issues with the Modman running both single and dual carbs – (333 RWHP) and it only really worked half way decent when I installed a full height divider (346 RWHP)

After much testing and trialling of the INDYtm intake which yielded only moderate improvements, I bit the bullet and purchased the EDELBROCK  / MOPAR PERFORMANCE Dual Quad Dual Plane AIRGAPtm. 

Only a moderate change in tuning was needed, the mid range and WOT needed leaning by one step on the step-up rods, and the pump shot set back one step.

Below is the dyno chart ( same dyno..similar atmospherics) showing three (3) runs – 

Dyno Dynamics Dyno Chart

 – The BLUE line was the Modman with divider – this netted a 11.9@ 114mph

 – The MIDDLE RED is the EDDY – same carbs – 360 rwhp

 – The Upper RED is the Eddy with twin 1″ 4 hole spacers. – 368RWHP

(Dyno Dynamics Dyno Chart)

-The Eddy had a home port match to the 6.1 heads.

-I think this proves conclusively that the Modman is a JUNK NA intake.

-My guess is that the carbs are losing about 15 rwhp to the EFI….

Going steady with Mopar and EDDY!!

So..

After much testing and trialling of the INDYtm intake which yielded only moderate improvements, I bit the bullet and purchased the EDELBROCK  / MOPAR PERFORMANCE Dual Quad Dual Plane AIRGAPtm. 

Only a moderate change in tuning was needed, the mid range and WOT needed leaning by one step on the step-up rods, and the pump shot set back one step.

The difference has been staggering…with an enormous amount more mid range and far more responsiveness.

Ive found it impossible to get an accurate GTech 0-60 time because the car just smokes the bags all the way through 1st and well into 2nd gear.

I wont be able to provide any statistical comparison until I get it to the track…but Im confident my 60ft issue is no longer going to be induction related……Hooking up may be another challenge!!!!

 

 

Indy Modman MISERY!!

To speak plainly, Indy Cylinder Heads should be ashamed in releasing such an ill-thought out product on the market, without comprehensive testing including track time.

Peak HP on engine dynos maybe one thing, but its highly doubtful even Indy are aware of what an average performer this piece is in carburreted format.

If you plan on buying a Modman…I’d recommend you use it in an EFI or Forced Induction role.

Single 800 AVS – second best MPH but appalling lean out off the mark – shooter drilled to .040th helped a little

The following is a detailed chronology of my efforts to get the Indy Modman intake to work efficiently on my Gen 3 HEMI.

 All tuning changes were validated both on the same dyno and at the track in similar DA.

 I have been tuning Carter and Edelbrock carbs for thirty years and am fully aware of the processes required in re-calibration and enhancements.

1^st tune – Single 800CFM AVS Thunder carb

333 RWHP – 110.8 MPH – 12.4 sec qtr – 1.94 60ft

Comment – Lean bog very apparent on launch

 

2^nd tune –  Drilled pump shooter to .040^th – 1.91 60ft

Comment – No bog if I rolled on the throttle, but sluggish response

 

3^rd tune – Pro Systems 830 cfm – 50cc Primary pump shot, 30cc secondary

No dyno – 109.8 mph – 12.4 sec – 1.84 60ft

Comment – No bog but sluggish 60 ft

 

4^th tune – Twin Edlebrock 500cfm Performer carbs – drilled shooters to .040th

No dyno – 111.1 mph – 12.39 sec – 1.91 60ft

Comment– Slight bog unless I rolled in the throttle

 

5^th tune – Twin Edelbrocks with twin Brodix turtles inserted in plenum

Comment – No change

 

6^th tune – Twin Edelbrocks with full height divider along length of plenum – increased initial timing from 15 to 21 deg .  Converted linkage from progressive to 1:1.

348.7 RWHP – 114.3 MPH – 11.9 sec – 1.82 60ft

 This has been the best result achieved. The 60 ft is still woeful for the mph and HP.

Dual quads 1:1 linkage

NOTES

  – Traction not a factor in any testing.

  –  No modification of air bleeds with Holley, just jetting.

  –  The Modman plenum volume results in a significant loss of signal and requires a MAMMOTH pump shot to overcome the overall plenum volume requirements.

  – The full height divider I ran was also ½” wide, serving to occupy some plenum space as well as improve the signal.

 – The car 60 footed better when I rolled on the throttle than when I rugged it in every scenario.

 – Stalling up had a negative effect – often resulting in a bigger bog.  I have determined this was because stalling uses up some of the ‘tip in’ travel hence a smaller pump shot.

 – The cam I ran was a HR with 219@.50 – It does not require a big converter , nor really high gears, so this was not contributing to the issue .

The divider that showed biggest gains.
Hard to believe this lump of metal improved MPH by 3 mph!

 Summary

On the street, no one would ever guess that these issues were to arise at the track..until I did some street tuning on drag radials.  It was only then I noticed the car struggled to turn the tyres on the street until tune #6.

 This problem manifested even worse at the track.

Conclusion

THE LESSON IS SIMPLE:

• NO intake should perform better with a plank of metal inserted into the plenum.

The Modman is a show/supercharger intake – pure and simple.

It may function better with a large cube motor – but as it runs a plenum that is 5x the volume of a normal single plane M1, I would still recommend experimenting with a divider.

TRAPS FOR THE RAT!

So here’s a summary of the issues I’ve confronted. 

I’ve linked the problem to the page where I’ve covered it in my blog

TTI MOUNTS

ENGINE POSITION –Using these adapter mounts you can expect an extreme pinion angle, a crooked engine and very little valve cover clearance on the right side inner guard (as viewed from the driving position) with an A body installation.

The problem lies with the left side mount – the pedestal is too high – pushing the motor up at the front and across .

FIX – In Australia you can use the Hemi 6 cylinder K frame and mounts devised by Elko/Valiant spares, OR

FIX – Use Andrew Dunnet’s K Frame/Mount conversion kit which is superb

FIX – Have the left side TTI mount modified, OR

FIX – Centre the engine,

FIX – Make a custom K member

Left side mount – pedestal stands too high for a level motor.

HEADERS

STEERING BOX CLEARANCE –  Thought I’d  found a solution with Street and Performance shorty headers.  These work a peach on the left side…but foul on the aussie steering box and are probably NOT going to work on a R&P  conversion.

FIX – In Australia / NZ  – Simple answer..budget for custom headers.

FIX –  In the US – Use TTI headers and the Dodge RAM truck Hemi manual trans starter motor.

Fabricated right side header

 OIL SYSTEM

MILODON PAN GASKET – Variety of issues – Stud hole not large enough, splash trough not deep enough, etc

FIX – Do what I did…use the FACTORY splash tray/gasket and trim the ears off it and drill two extra holes to match the Milodon pan.

Then………………

If it leaks – then COMBINE with the Milodon cork rail gasket for a happy marriage between the tin pan and pan rail.

 OIL FILTER – The TTI adapter mounts foul on the TTI block off plate.

 FIX – Some small grinding required.

Or,

FIX – Run a Dakota angled filter mount – a shorty filter and some grinding is required.

 In any case, clearance for remote oil hoses is tight between the auxiliary oil ports and the Alt. 

 

ELECTRICAL 

ALTERNATOR CLEARANCE:

The early 5.7 AND 6.1 Car Alt sits too low and fouls the A body frame rail

 FIX – Provided the engine mount problems are fixed…the Jeep Cherokee 6.1 Alt provides more clearance to the inner guard.

 Or,

 FIX – Buy a March pulley kit system

Or,

FIX – Clearance the inner fender fold.

REGULATOR CONNECTOR – The modern G3 Alt. has a twin post external regulator socket. 

 FIX – Connect one to the F(-) and one to 12V switched.

CURRENT – The G3 Hemi Alts can make 150 or 160 amps – This will fry the old factory ammeters at full load. 

 FIX – Fit an extra “shunt” wire that runs from the Alt. post to the starter relay – this “splits” the current and makes it highly unlikely your car will ever draw enough load through the existing Alt wire to cook your ammeter.   Use 10 or 12 gauge wire.

 SENDERS

COMPATIBILITY –  The 6.1 runs non-compatible senders to the later MSD Hemi 6 ECU harness.

 FIX – Buy later 5.7 Cam and Crank sensors.

ENGINE BAY

BRAKE BOOSTER (Aussie only)

 COIL PACK INTERFERENCE – The aussie  V8 brake booster is not a happy marriage with the coil on plug valve covers. Basically any re- positioning of the booster in the bay, or cutting of the booster bracket, will still not allow enough room to be able to remove either the #6 or #8 coil packs for plug removal.

 FIX – Relocate the booster to a remote system, The MC will also need to be re-positioned on a off set bracket as coil pack clearance is necessary, OR

–  Use the offset bracket from Elko / Valiant Spares and a Hemi 6 booster

FIX – Run a Hydro booster

Off set brake booster bracket available from Elko / Valiant spares – includes new dust boot, all linkages and bushings.

 STARTER

CLEARANCE – The two rear most pan bolt lugs on the left side interfere with the body of the Mopar mini-starter.

 FIX – The two left rear-most oil pan bolt lugs cast into the block must be trimmed back to allow clearance for the starter when using the Mopar mini starter.

 Or,

 FIX – Use a 2005 Ram starter. (This may interfere with  TTI headers)

RADIATOR

 INLET/OUTLET – LOCATION AND DIAMETER – There is no direct compatible radiator for the A Body / G3 6.1 conversion.

FIX – Champion makes a “B Body 6.1 radiator”  P# CC1643 – however although on the correct side – the inlet / outlet pipe diameters are reversed.

 They ARE on the correct side however– so ………… 

Fix – Use Gates universal hoses – 1 x p# 25526 (13″), 1x p#25527 (15″) 

15 March 13 – DONE AND DUSTED

11 Jan 13 – Cam install part 2

 

  – 218/227 @ .50, .565/.555 lift, 110LSA, 114 ICL (Cam card said 106 – supplier said 114)

 – 2 x Hyd Lifters converted to solid through removal of internal valve and washer spacing the plunger

 – Modelling Clay

 – 10 x M12 Head bolts – P# 6506694AA

 – 1 x Head Gasket  – P# 05037592AC

 –  Do you plan on degreeing it?

 – Are you going to check  Piston to Valve clearance?

 I started out happy to accept the cam suppliers word..after all…there’s a load of these cams out there all working well….but mine WAS ground on a tighter LSA (110) which reduces P-V……….

 Then the hassle started……I’d have to swap out the Hyd lifter for a solid to do this right.

– I needed a solid lifter to accurately measure the valve travel to check P-V,

– I’d need new head bolts (A good reason to use ARP – they can be re-used)

– I’d need a new gasket if I planned on swapping the lifter…because I had to lift the head to swap the lifters.

I couldn’t get accurate data on the expected P-V other than it would be “closer than most old school builds”..so I agreed and got ahold of two used lifters.

I got a new set of Torque to Yield head bolts (silly me) and gasket from East Coast Moparts..arrived within 10 days…..and we set to it.

1 – A lifter was modified to make it ‘solid’ and after a couple of trials we worked out the exact plunger height that allowed the valve to seat.

Fabricating Hyd lifter to a solid –

 

Modelling clay to check Piston to Valve clearance

Lifter bracket that secures lifters in block

 

 The cam installed exactly where I was told it would end up….but that’s only half the story.

  If you’re interested in cams and the scam pulled on buyers, read on…..

1 – Most off the shelf (OTS) cams for G3 hemis (non VVT) are ground on a retarded Intake Centre Line

2 – This means they can avoid piston/valve clash where there are no ‘eyebrows’ in the factory slugs

3 – Now for an EFI car, this is not so bad – the worst that happens is that low end torque suffers at the expense of upper end torque and peak HP

BUT…

4 – For a carb inducted car, an 8 degree retarded cam is a DISASTER.  

 – because the intake valve opens later, it halves the ability of the cylinder to ‘draw’ Air/fuel into the chamber.

RESULT?

A thing called reversion where wet fuel gets spat back into the intake runner and is injected back to the cylinder as raw fuel droplets.

OUTCOME?

Washed bores and bearings!!!  The thin metric ring pack doesn’t help this issue!!

PART ALERT

 – G3 Hemi springs are not particularly strong – I’d recommend changing springs, the PSI  LS1511ML spring is a straight drop in , but you will need the correct viton seals, locaters and shims to set the install height.

 – Factory 6.4 Apache’s have had serious lifter issues in the earlier cars – take the opportunity to get new MP lifters – Don’t risk the Ebay rubbish either,

 – For EFI cars, the “off the shelf cam” option is not so bad, just don’t expect major 60ft improvements,

 – For carb cars – do it RIGHT.  Get some decent pistons with  reliefs (and rods) – get a cam that has been ground correctly or at least degree the cam where the card says it should be- NOT where some retailer thinks it’ll be okay. (You’ll only be able to do this with aftermarket pistons.)

Craig from THITEK Cylinder heads helped me sort out the issue – give him a call!

28 Dec 12 – Making sense of the sensors

PART #s

 – Any Oil sender block with 1/8-27 NPT thread fitting

– Any NPT  adapter bung converting block thread to 1/8-27 for temp sender

– Factory 5.7 Cam sensor 56041584AF

– Factory 5.7 Crank sensor 56028815AA

Various sensors need to be changed to suit both the MSD 6013 ECU and MSD 88863 06-08 wiring harness, and the 1971 Chrysler instrumentation.

Cam and Crank

 The 06-08 MSD 88863 harness requires the use of the <05 5.7 cam and crank sensor.

 This is the reason why MSD claim the ECU won’t work with the 6.1. ……….. It’s not the functionality of the unit, simply that the harness is supplied with the 5.7 style plug clips for these two sensors..not the 6.1 style which are much smaller.

The solution is simple …….The MY 5.7 05 onwards sensors screw straight in to the 6.1 block.

 I bought mine from www.eastcoastmoparts.com shipped and arrived in 8 days.

 

 

 

The Crank sensor – located at the left rear side of the block (as you face the car)

Both sensors are O ringed and secured with one screw.

 Oil

 The 3G Hemi is fitted with both an oil pressure switch and an oil temp switch. They are poisioned directly above the oil filter boss.

The Oil temp switch screws in to the top oil auxiliary port.  I’m using this port for my return oil line from my remote filter.

The oil pressure switch screws into the front of the block.

Aftermarket Oil pressure gauge splitter fitting with LA pressure switch.

The oil pressure switch utilises the same thread as the LA small block oil switch..so you can simply discard the 6.1 sensor and fit whatever variation of oil pressure switch or line you want to use.

 I’m using a splitter block so I can run the oil light and my aftermarket oil pressure gauge.

 Water temp

The water temp switch is located at the top right front of the block – and is a completely different thread from the LA small block temp sender.  You will need to buy an adapter bung from ENZED or similar. Mine cost $2.98!

LA Water temperature sender and adapter bung

 MAP sensor

Although the MSD 6013 ECU is primarily a spark controller – it does allow you to use the manifold air pressure (MAP) sensor to plot the manifold pressure to modify ignition timing at low and high vacuum.

The EFI intake MAP sensor is located at the rear of the intake. It is secured by an o ring and two screws.  I simply removed it and attached it to the carb intake has a provision for this sensor.

So there we have it – these are the only sensor modifications required as I am not running EFI and am not using a fuel controller of any sort…..except the carb!

 

24 Dec 12 – Its oil on the plate…..

PARTS

TTI oil block off plate – PN 0200-FBP

OR

90 degree adapter mount – MM90FLTK

Because the factory A Body K frame fouls on the factory 3G Hemi oil filter , you have to consider which way you want to tackle the problem.

1)  – You can use a Dodge Dakota truck angled filter adapter – but that requires running a very short filter – and still requires some notching of both the adapter and the K frame.

Dakota truck remote oil filter mount – You can see the auxiliary ports directly above it with cap screw bungs.

The finalised appearance using the Dakota adapter

2) – As I run a remote oil filter system anyway..I’ve chosen to use the TTI filter boss block off plate.

The 3G Hemi has remote auxilliary oiling ports directly above the filter boss….making it easy to tap remote oil NPT fittings for hoses directly into the block.

Oil filter boss – This pic shows the oil filter boss..and the original threaded oil filter screw fitting. You’ll need a 12mm allen key to remove this.

 

TTI block off plate partially installed

The TTI engine mount adapter requires a small amount of trimming to clear the TTI plate (See below) – not sure how TTI could have missed this pretty basic issue?

Point of contact between mount and plate

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

09 Dec 12 – Cam install part 1

Performing a cam swap in a NEW Gen 3 CRATE Hemi is not hard –but there’s two important words in this statement….

They are NEW and in a  CRATE.

What I mean by this is because its a crate motor, you can do this while the engine is out of the car – so that’s a big easy

Second – being new means the hyd roller lifters will do what they are supposed to do – and not interfere with the cam when it comes time to slide it out.

Lastly – be aware that this swap is being done with a mild cam where there will be no Piston to Valve clash to worry about – and no need to change lifters.  Also “degreeing” was done using the existing hyd roller lifter – so there are some small inaccuracies to be expected.

IMPORTANT – If you are unsure if there will be P-V issues, or you are running an old engine where the lifters may not “hang up” in the bores when you rotate the cam without pushrods…,then resign yourself to a “heads off” exercise.

1. – Remove the balancer (Damper) – relatively easy process with a three jaw puller – Inserted a 1/4” drive into the cam bolt socket to gve the centre rod of the puller something to work against..although any piece of rod or an undersized bolt will work.

2. – Remove the water transfer tubes – dead easy with one bolt, one nut per side and the end of the fitting into the front cover is O ringed press fit.

3. – Remove the front cover – the only trick with this is to not forget that some of the water pump bolts also secure the front cover to the block.

NOTE: – Also there is a 6mm stud toward the top of the cover (The smaller of two studs)  – that also needs to be removed as it goes through to the block.

Removal of the front cover reveals the timing chain, cam trigger wheel and crank sprocket.

4. – So now we have to remove the valve gear so we can slide the cam out without interference – so off come the valve covers.

Undo the coil pack retaining screws (two per pack) and simply pull the coil packs off – the sheaths that slide over the plugs are covered in die-electric grease so they simply slide off the plugs.

 Then –  undo the valve cover studs and lift off the valve covers – these are also O ringed for your convenience!

5 – Before removing the rocker gear and shafts – be aware:

– The shaft bolt locaters that the bolts snug down on are NOT to be removed.

– The pushrods for the intake side and exhaust side are different lengths.

– The rocker gear must not be interchanged

NOTE: – The push rod holes are all on the engine side of the corresponding shafts

6 – Then we remove the plugs – Simply use a magnetic probe and lift them straight out of their tunnels.

7. – So we move back to the front of the engine –

– Pin back the timing chain tensioner as in the picture

–  secure the crank from rotating and undo the Cam bolt.

– Slide the cam trigger wheel off.

8) – You need a long bolt to insert into the cam shaft before removal – I found the discarded Main cap stud was the same thread – so used that.

 

9 – Now we rotate the cam shaft a minimum two times and listen for the lifters to “hang up” in their bores – they make a kind on clicking sound as the locate.

The cam tunnel – Note the lifter wheels all tucked up out the way

 

You won’t know if they’ve all “located” until you start to remove the cam …so take it “slow and easy”.

Be aware –Its done more by feel than any rules – slowly ease the cam out feeling for interference.

NOTE – If you get to a point where the cam will simply not move (this will happen very early in the process) – you may have a lifter that has refused to “hang” (relocate) .

A magnetic probe down each push rod hole will tell you which is still too far “down the tunnel” – it will also assist in lifting it “out the way” an you may be able to continue the cam withdrawal.

If you have several “dropped” lifters – either buy a lot of probes and get a load of buddies to hold them  – or remove the heads, centre plenum and do an “old school” cam change by removing the lifters.

Part two will deal with the install – however I don’t intend to detail the process of degreeing the cam – that’s available on line and its not in my skill set…….(Special thx to Johnny! )  🙂

 

 

06 Dec 12 – Fitting the pan

 

 

PARTS:

These part #s apply to the 6.1 ONLY. The 5.7 Eagle and 6.4 Apache require a different pick up. 

Sump – MIL31000,

Pick up – MIL18331

Dipstick and Tube – MIL 22064 – Jeep dipstick can be used.

Oil Pan bolts – MIL-85025

Oil Pick up support stud – 6506333-AA

Oil Stud Nut – # 6502756

Bearing Cap Bolt – 06506272AA

The pan swap is one of the more involved aspects of the conversion process…as there are several tricks to be wary of.

Its been well documented that you need to use the Milodon centre hump pan and pick up to perform this conversion, but whats not so well known is that you also have to use the Milodon dipstick and the Milodon pan bolts as well.

The factory pan bolts are too long, and the Milodon pan has no provision for the factory dipstick….but fortunately Ma Mopar left the dipstick boss right there in the pan rail for us to use!.

So –

– Remove the factory pan

– Remove the gasket/splash tray

– Remove the factory pick up

– Remove the small bung in the left side (aussie passenger side) pan rail with a small punch. This hole is used to locate the Milodon dipstick

 

1) – the #1 main stud and # 3 main cap bolt must be interchanged as the Milodon pick up requires the stud to be at #3.

Unfo – these are 15mm Torque To Yield bolts..and therefore must not be re-used or they’ll snap on you.

(You”ll also need a very deep 15mm barrel socket to get over the stud.)

So purchase replacements and simply swap them around. The torque spec is 28nm + 90 degrees for the stud and the main cap bolt.

The pick up bolt and nut are also 28nm (21ftlbs)

 

 

2) – fit the replacement Milodon gasket/splash tray. This is easier to use than modifying a factory one.

The Milodon pan has a different bolt pattern and doesn’t use the four larger pan bolts – so using their gasket makes things tidier and easier.

NOTE: I modifed the factory one for this mock up – but Ill be using the Milodon piece when it arrives.

NOTE – There are two extra small holes in the corner of the Milodon gasket to match the pan – the corresponding holes are in the block, but may well be filled with RTV as the factory uses RTV to seal four corners of the gasket.

See pics below:

Grind these extra bolt holes down – to provide starter motor clearance.

Extra holes in factory pan gasket to match Milodon pan

 

Gasket /splash tray fitted – note the unused larger bolt holes in the factory splash tray on the right side of the pic – the Milodon tray doesn’t have these.

 

3) – we fit the Milodon pick up – AFTER the gasket. Be extra careful with the bolt and the nut – dropping them will result in a major search and rescue exercise within the engine.

 

4) – we fit the pan! – the bolt tightenting sequence is as for any other sump – start in the middle and work outwards.

I’ll deal with the oil filter adapter modification and the dipstick in a later post!

PART ALERT!!!

– You MUST replace the main cap #3 bolt and #1 stud – try to re-use the existing ones and they’ll most likely snap.

– You MUST use Milodon pan bolts – the factory ones are too long

– You MUST use the MIlodon pick up with the Milodon pan

– The factory gasket/windage tray is NOT designed to be used with a tin oil pan.  It is MUCH wiser to use the Milodon splashtray & gasket than to modify the factory piece

– You MUST re-apply RTV in the four locations as per the factory gasket – This seals the small detentes between te timing cover gasket and the pan rail – much like a LA engine.

03 Dec 12 – Ejecting the pilot……..

……….One of the mods thats required is the removal of a pilot bush at the rear of the 6.1 crank so I can run the 727 converter.   Here it is marked with the red felt pen.

 

After about an hours grinding with a carbide cutter and dremel grinding wheel, to split the bush, its possible to prize it out with a small chisel driven down behind the bush and the blank face.   (Its easier to  weld a plate with a welded nut to the face of the bush, and then use a puller…but I don’t have a welder.)   This is one of the most difficult and fiddly parts to the whole conversion.

Job done!

 

 

29 Nov 12 – Getting the rats in a row

Well it finally got here!

After 3mths of stuffing around, the MP 6.1 Hemi and associated parts finally landed.

 

Here is a “to do” list – and as posts are added describing the mods and fit-up ..you can use this to estimate what you’ll need to do.

TASK	Issues/Tools
Block prep
Remove intake/ mask ports
Remove pilot bushing	Dremel or bearing puller
Clearance starter block flange	Angle grinder
Check starter fitting
Clearance block for mounts	Angle Grinder
Fit engine mount adapters	Will require clearancing and possible modification
Fit tensioner	Crate motors do not come wioth tensioner
Fit idler pulley	Crate motors do not come woiith idler pulley
Remove MAP sensor and fit to new intake
Change T Stat	Protect gasket
Fit Oil block off plate and select best oil line fittings	Block may require some clearancing
Fit required temp sensor adapter and oil line adapters
Remove pilot bearing bush from back of crank	There are different ways to do this – a pilot bearing puller is the easiest in the long run
Flexplate swap	Use ATI – MP plate is inferior and prone to cracking
Trial flex plate to converter
Fit flex plate
Trial fit converter to crank	Check for converter bolt clearance
Fit converter back into transmission
Pan swap
Remove factory pan
Remove dipstick bung in pan rail
Remove pan splash tray
Remove pick up
Undo stud and main cap bolt
Fit new Main cap bolt and stud	Use Torque to Yield bolts
Fit new pick up	Protect O ring
Fit new dipstick or Jeep dipstick	Check length to rocker cover bracket
Use Milodon gasket	Check Silicon locations
Trial Fit pan	Use Milodon bolts
Cam swap
Set on TDC
Remove coil packs / rocker covers
Remove rocker gear / push rds	Retain layout
Remove balancer
Remove timing cover
Remove timing gear
Rotate camshaft twice to hang lifters
Remove cam
Insert new cam
Re-fit  T chain
degree install
Refit timing cover
Refit balancer
Trial fit engine
Remove brake booster
Fit mount adapters and biscuit mounts to block
connect engine to bellhousing
/ check for converter clearance
Check oil plate and line fittings for clearance
Check for torque strap location
Fit alternator – check for clearance on inner guard
Trial fit intake
Work out oil line lengths
Get correct booster hose fitting
Fit Intake  – secure
Fit carb and spacer
Fit headers
Electrical
Supply 12 volts switched to ECU, choose suitable earth points, and wire up ECU and tach wire to adapter
Wire alternator using 1field terminal to reg, second field terminal to 12V Ig, add 12 gauge shunt to reduce load on ammeter
Fit starter – wire up – check cranking
Fit spark plugs
Wire up ECU include firewall grommet	Tach line to SW and MSD adapter – Length of harness?
Program ECU when motor is fired up
Workshop
Radiator brackets
Booster bracket	Aussie V8 Booster will not clear #8 coil pack
Electric Fans inc  sensors and wiring
Exhaust fabrication
Prime engine  using bottom auxiliary oil hole as this leads to pump
Measure and fit Serpentine belt

 

1 May 12 – The Pros and the Cons

PROS and CONS

 

Getting one

First you have to think about where you source it from –

– US eastern seaboard freight costs across country to the docks on the West Coast start at $400 and go upwards depending on which company is used.

Then you have shipping and GST from the US –

– again its unlikely you’d drop one of these into Sydney or Melbourne for under $1000 by the time taxes and broker charges are paid.

So your $6K engine is now around 7.5K!

Fitting it

 

Then we have conversion costs – and these can vary depending on what induction, motor and what level of performance you’re wanting.

At the very least if you want to run the factory EFI system, you can anticipate spending around 4.5K on:

– fuel system upgrades,

– ignition controller mods

– Engine mounts and flex plate conversion

– Aftermarket oil pan and associated hardware

Even by putting aside the EFI and going down the carb conversion route, there’s significant expense on a carb intake, exhaust mods, and ECU ………….

 

What’s it worth?

This is rear wheel – and the induction is still not fully tuned.

Besides, tell me how many LA or RB motors that make 470 at the fly, and return 20 mpg on a highway run on 4.11 gears!….and never runs hot…and starts first time every time….etc.

The big attraction of the Gen 3 is the HP potential of the engine in fairly basic form, allowing for competitive race days while keeping the “missus” happy on a Sunday outing.

And like it or not – modern factory engines have an inherent reliability that old school high comp flat tappet engines do not.

The aftermarket potential of these engines is huge – however be prepared to get “hurt” when it comes to the pricing of valve train, induction and head upgrades – Nothing in these Gen 3s is for those with shallow pockets!.

06 Jul 12 – What’s needed – The Theory………..

OK – firstly the install –

These items are needed whether you go with EFI or a carb induction –

• Engine mounts – TTI – MM57A (A Body) or TTIMM57B (B & E body) Available from Mancini or TTI – They are basically an adapter plate to fit the std rubber biscuit mounts to the Gen 3 block. 
• ATI Flex plate  – Available from Summit – required to bolt the Gen 3 to a small block 727/904 – Some other companies offer a “spacer plate” …by all accounts this is not needed.

Milodon Sump – MIL31000, – The Gen 3 sump will foul the K frame – a centre positioned “hump” is needed. Companies who make them include:

• Milodon,
• Weldtech, and
• Canton.

The Canton piece is the nicest finish, the Milodon is still pretty nice and the least expensive by almost $100 US.

Milodon pan – 6quarts

• Milodon Pick up – MIL18331 – Pre 08 motors – See sump.
• Milodon Pan bolts – The factory bolts are too long for the milodon pan rail
• Milodon Dipstick and tube -P/N 22064 – An aftermarket dip stick & tube for the Milodon Pan . The 6.1 has a plugged hole near block pan rail between cylinders 5 & 7 . NOTE – The Jeep dipstick can be used with some mounts
• Electric Fans – Obviously thermostatic fans are needed – at this stage I’m going to use Ford twin fans.
• PS delete pulley – Street & Performance or Bouchillion – If you don’t want AirCon you can simply not fit it – Deleting Power Steer means fitting an “idler” pulley which are a silly price.

• Headers – Right steer cars will still need to fabricate headers for A Bodies.  B Bodies can use TTI but mdifications will be necessary if you run a rack and pinion
• TTI oil filter block off plate. You can plumb oil fittings directly into the side of the block as there are Allen plug fittings provided….but you’ll need the TTI oil boss block off plate…It was the one part that worked from TTI without modification.   

TTI block off plate

Conversion from EFI to carb

Manifold – There are only three intakes I would recommend – The OCP dual plane single, the Edelbrock/MP Dual plane dual quad or the Drag Pack.

The Indy ModMan , MP or XV 11 are all appalling designs whch seriously impair the performance of the motor.

Gaskets – Intake gaskets are needed if you pull the EFI – Buy them from OEM parts houses or one of the specialist suppliers like Modern Muscle in the US.

You MUST ask for standard non-o ringed gaskets sold by Cometic or MP – the O rings dissolve in gasolene 

Alternator –  The pre 2011 Jeep SRT alternator works well with the earlier aftermarket Computer controllers , but will NOT work with the later factory Eagle, Apache of the MP plug and play PCMs – it mounts on the LX timing cover but sits a little higher and affords a crucial 7/16ths more clearance.   Again Rock Auto offer the best deal – Other places like Bouchillon or Summit offer chromed pieces for over $300 US.

Ignition ECU – MSD 6-HEMI P# 6013 – Carb induction means you don’t have to use the factory ECU – The MSD offers provision for the Cam, Crank and MAP (Vac advance) sensor and a base line programmed tune to factory spec. The MSD is programmeable and will easily accomodate changes in timing curve demanded by cam changes.

ECU to coil Harness – MSD P# 88864 – a plug and play harness that adapts the MSD to the coil packs, sensors and ignition…by all accounts its a stroll in the park to clip up…although a little too long so some re-routing may be needed. 

MSD 6013 controller and harness – will work with a 6.1 if you change the cam and crank sensors to 5.7 type

So there you have it – in theory its not too much of a hassle ……..we’ll see as soon as the 6.1 lands.

PART ALERT –

Alternator – Only use the Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT 6.1 Alternator with earlier PCMs – It provides greater engine bay clearance due to its mounting position.

Flex Plate – Mopar performance is inferior piece – use the ATI item from Summit

Harness – You may have to swap cam and crank sensors to suit the harness – this is the ONLY reason MSD do not recommend the 6013 for the 6.1